The Defence Research Telecommunications Establishment

Round table discussion - 2

DK  Can I ask a question from the audience? One of the things that's the theme of this early discussion is the fact that - it started off in the war, with the understanding of radar through the technologies that were being developed then. There was a large U.S. Air Force influx of money coming in. One presumes this was due to the fact that they wanted to understand, for defence purposes, echoes from aurora. Similar with the optical work that was being done at that time with early infrared sensors and defence needs. What was the interference, if any - was this just pure research, or was there any interference that any of you knew about that was going on within the military complex?
DM  This is a timely remark, as I am just about to take over and turn attention to DRTE, and one of the things that I want to throw open is the question that Peter raised along these lines.
RN  Nat Gerson, when he approached me about the contract that came here said "The terms of reference of the U.S. Air Force is to know everything that there is about the atmosphere." Now that might have been terribly altruistic, but that's what he said.
AVJ  They had the money, and they really thought that it was worth pushing the pure research on a broad basis.
RN  Nat Gerson certainly believed that.

And as I understand it from what I have read, it was really Nat Gerson who sort of had a carte blanche to do whatever he seemed to think was necessary in order to achieve those ends.

Well, DRTE. Now, I was at DRTE for a little over a year, and in my position I saw nothing, not really anything of the fact that this was a defence research telecommunications establishment. From my perspective this was the most extraordinary place, where there were all these amazing scientists doing interesting things. It was an extraordinary time, really. I worked for Colin, and that was exciting in itself - nine-by-nine simultaneous equations, finding roots -
CH Ian Axford?
DM Ian Axford came after I left, the year after. Owen Storey was there, George Reid was there, Walter Heikkila, it was an extraordinary place.
RN The calibre of the papers that were given there was very good, and most of them very scientifically oriented. There wasn't the sniff of military about it.
DM I dare say that because I was at the lowest level, I never heard anything about whatever might be defence related. Or was it that even by 1957 that the character of DRTE had changed?
CH Well, there certainly were highly classified things going on. You may remember Lou Hatton in Communications Lab. He was involved in transatlantic forward scatter from the ionosphere, and simultaneously switching frequencies to catch the best frequency, a sort of mirror of the Janet system, with transmitters and receivers at both ends.
DM Using the ionosphere rather than meteors.

Colin Hines speakingYes. And simultaneously find out what the best frequency is for you to receive while the other guy is finding that same frequency because he is looking at your signal, and then making sort of instantaneous adjustments. That was very highly classified work. I don't know what all was going on, of course, because I had no need to know.

One other thing that I can say on this point is that Frank Davies was all for basic research in the first years. Then he was taken into headquarters in 1958, I guess - late 57 or early 58. He considered it sort of like doing time in jail, and he was always bitching about this whenever he came back to the lab. But by the time that he was reappointed Chief Superintendent of DRTE, his position had changed completely, and this was a defence research organization and we have to do defence research here, we have to do things that those guys that I talked to over the past two years need to have answers to. Everbody was going to have to do a turn in headquarters, all these pure scientists were going to have to funnel through - this was an emotional change on his part.
DM When was this?
CH He would have come back in 60, no in late 59, maybe. One of the things he wanted to do was turf me out of the superintendency of Radio Physics Lab.
PF I can understand that!

Well, YOU can understand that. But he was doing it for different reasons, Peter. [laughter]

But he had also inherited this satellite program which was supposed to be a little baseball-sized thing carried in somebody else's satellite, and by the time he had come back it had exploded to basketball size, and then it ended up as you know. So he was constrained by that, and by international politics with the NASA involvement, so he couldn't do much in turning that into a military thing; but Zimmerman, the chairman of the Defence Research Board, had given his personal blessing to this, so there was no real problem there. I don't know how it went on from there. In mid-60 I quit RPL and went into seclusion in the Theoretical Studies Group, and I don't really know what happened as he tried to evolve this later. Maybe Doris can ...
AVJ This was when the Cold War was heating up, as you might say, in that period. Before you saw the euphoria after the Second World War, that there weren't going to any more wars or conflicts, but that proved to be wrong by the time Sputnik was launched, and all the missiles, etc.
DJ I remember having briefings, you know. I don't know where from, whether it was headquarters or military or what have you, and - what were they, slides, glass slides, at that point in time, I guess - with the maps showing this is where the missiles are coming from and this is how long we all have, and really gave one the sense of the urgency of trying to detect these.
CH That sort of program had started as early as 1950 with the Pine Tree Line, which was designed in part in the Radio Propagation Lab, as it was then, which puts me in mind of a footnote on the Saskatoon thing. Jack Hogarth, who was a scientist in DRTE, was involved in the initial designing of the Pine Tree Line. In - when would it be - in 56, or something, when the Prince Albert Radar was being offered to Canada, and the Defence Research Board agreed to accept it, Jack Hogarth was the one who went out west, and flew around Saskatchewan trying to find a suitable location for it. He looked at many sites, and finally came up with recommendation that DRB's SES, the Suffield Experimental Station, a biological station, was the most suitable place. DRB already owned the land, and the aspect and everything was all right. So this was the formal basis on which everything was proceeding until the election in which Diefenbaker became prime minister, Diefenbaker, of course, representing Prince Albert. Within a week there was a memo which came out to the establishment saying "Please give the scientific reasons for NOT establishing the radar in Prince Albert," [laughter] and none were produced. [laughter] And you know the outcome of that.
PF I've got to add one more thing - there was another stage in there. Jack Hogarth asked me where it should go, and I said "Dundern," which is about 30 miles from Saskatoon, and you have the expertise from the University of Saskatchewan, and you'll have a nice place to look at the auroral zone, everything will be just great. And the commanding officer - this was an army base out there - said "No way," so Jack did send the suggestion that it should be at Dundern, ...
CH Have I mixed it up?
PF I don't know, but I know about Dundern, because the commanding officer of Dundern was at a meeting in Ottawa and was on his way back home, and he was told to get off the airplane at whereever these things stopped in those days - Lakehead, or something like that - and go back to Ottawa to justify not putting it at Dundern. And by the time he had got back there, Diefenbaker had exclaimed "by George, this is something we ought to have in Prince Albert," and that was when he issued his directive. But, even when he said "near Prince Albert" and in spite of Prince Albert being my home town - I suggested that he should put it at La Cole Falls, which is down the Saskatchewan River, a nice open area there, government land, everything just fine, but it was about 20, 30 miles from Prince Albert. Nothing would do but it should go right in Prince Albert.
DM Peter, since you are going to ...
PF Yes, I have to get out of here soon.
DM I'd like to give you a moment to comment on that issue ...

I'd like to. And I have something else for you all here that you can look at because I'm not prepared to talk about those, but I went through my extensive archives and tried to find all the reports in sequence that were leading towards a space agency back in those old days. It will be no surprise to you that the ones I happen to have in my archives are all ones with which I had something to do. But when you get this, I would like you to note particularly report #1 and report #3, which you may not know about. We might discuss these later if you want to. I just wanted to note that not too many people know about #1, nor about #3, and those were both specific proposals for a space agency in Canada, and you will note the dates are 61 and 67.

Peter ForsythAnyway, on this subject of outside influence on science, and particularly space science in Canada, I am not quite as sanguine about the whole thing as some of you people are. I believe that there were very strong influences that might have been brought to bear on Canadian science. To my mind they were exactly the same influences that were brought to bear on United States science and science in Great Britain. In both those cases there developed an actual hierarchy of science that was within the military, or within the intelligence community, which was separately funded and continued within those areas. In Canada, there was the beginnings of that at the end of the war, but, first of all, I think it was Don Rose, and Don McKinley - and I don't know who else, but certainly those two were important - who said, in effect, if the military or intelligence community want an answer, they can ask us, and we will get them the answer, but basically we will not do the classified research that other countries do. That carried over to DRB, and as Colin was saying, Frank was one of the most vociferous defendants of that point of view during my time at RPL. Now if he changed later, as I guess he did, that might well have happened. His point of view was simply "Look , we've got some terribly classified, secret things that are going on, and if anything is needed for that work, and you think you can spell it out in a way that doesn't reveal the nature of the work that we are doing, then by all means, do so, and we'll find somebody to do it." They did this over and over again.

I have to come back to Nat Gerson. When Nat showed up in Canada he was, of course, working for, at that time the USAF, later on he worked for the National Security Agency. It was about a year after I first met him that I suddenly realized that he was, quote, "a spook," and he was really working on highly classified things, and that he was giving out money to do these other things, and yet - and I don't know whether it was his own volition, I hope it was, or whether it was because he talked to Frank Davies and to Don McKinley - certainly he did talk to those people - I don't ever recall, in all the years that I knew him, him ever saying "I've got to get this answer and the work is going to be classified, and you mustn't be able to publish it." And that surely is the criterion by which all this research can be judged. Just as a little sideline, remember this conference that was here? I submitted an abstract for it, and I was affronted because when the program came out the title of my paper had been changed and the abstract had been changed, and I thundered over to Nat and said "What's going on here?" He said "Look, it doesn't matter a hoot. So I say microwave, and you're not talking about microwaves; it doesn't matter. There are terribly important people in this world who want somebody to talk about microwaves and aurora." So I said, "OK, fine, have it your away!" That was one of the reasons why Nat did not finance the radio work in Canada, because the Defence Research Board didn't want to let go of it. And at the same time, I never suffered from any constraints on my work from the Defence Research Board, and I don't think many people did that were doing basic research, and I think that we should be very, very grateful to that stout group of people. I think Nat was absolutely motivated by the best of all possible principles, but the work that he had done in the United States was more constrained than the work that was done here.
RN Nat changed over the years, too, didn't he?
PF I guess so, but he was ultimately involved in all this stuff. He would show up here on campus, and take me out on the field to talk to me because he was afraid of being overheard. And yet he was so careful to completely divorce the things that would have prevented publication from those that wouldn't. I just think that we are very fortunate in Canada with that history.
IM None of us encountered this, but there must have been lots of scientists working for DRB in their establishments at Suffield, and CARDE, and DRTE, where a lot of classified work was being done by scientists who wanted to do it, presumably.
PF Both Colin and I did a lot of classified work during our time at DRTE, but nobody ever really said to us that if you are working over here you can't publish your papers over there. If you've got a device that's going to save the world if nobody knows about it, you keep that secret, and that's all. Isn't that true?
IM But if there was anything that you had that was classified, you obviously couldn't publish.
PF No, we couldn't, that's right. But we knew the difference so clearly.
RN Dealing with the university, this university, and others, I believe, Nat was very strong in encouraging people to publish in the open literature.
PF Exactly, yes.
RN And the way in which the US Air Force contracts ran - I mean there was all sorts of contract language - but it was so free and easy, you know? There was a small work statement: Do research in these general areas, you know, and provided you kept your reports going there was no problem.
PF My point is, really, that you wouldn't have had that freedom if you had been in any of the major research labs in the United States.
RN Oh, no.
PF And that to me is a big plus.
RN But he had a profound - I think one thing which has to come out, following what you were saying, Peter, that must come out of this meeting, is that space research in the academic institutions in Canada supported by Nat was profoundly important in the development of the program. The money, the facilities, the training - many of the senior people - Gordon here is a very good example, your work was partly supported by Nat, wasn't it?
GS Yes, I guess my salary came from him, and I did see lithium ..
RN Don McEwen worked with me; he was supported by Nat.
AVJ We didn't see very much of Nat in those later years. It was mostly contract monitors.
RN Contract monitors. We had Joe Chamberlain come here.
GS Norman Oliver.
RN Norm Oliver went to Saskatchewan.
AVJ and later Thomas P. Markham.
GS That's right.
RN And then Fred Innes came.
AVJ They were the people who we were actually dealing with.
RN Oh, no. Nat assigned a contract monitor to each of the particular groups. He didn't come around himself that much.
IM On the other hand, the US Air Force supported all kinds of people in the States at universities who published all sorts of stuff. Even people at Lockheed could publish, supported by the US Air Force.
PF But I have been to many of the meetings that were sponsored by the USAF, and they would have a meeting, sure. And then there would be a little classified section, and they'd all go off in a little corner, and you knew darned well ..
IM Canadian guys probably did it a little more subtly, you didn't see.
PF Occasionally they would invite the Canadians in, and we tried not to go.
IM I mean Canadians in Canada probably did it more subtly.
PF Oh, no, I don't think so.
IM You think the people in Suffield weren't putting the pressure on people who were doing stuff outside? I bet they were.
PF Putting pressure on..?
IM If they gave contracts to somebody at the university to do some work.
PF I think in almost all cases the freedom to publish was clear.
IM Well, up to a point.
DM The universities didn't have facilities for a lot of safes or anything like that.
RN In my day at Western you were expected, if you were publishing, you should be teaching.
PF Incidentally, I should comment that NRC was a big player in all of this, and the suggestion that they got completely out of classified work is nonsense. Work went on there for a long time, and again, there was such careful separation of one thing and the other that ..
RN But one thing that Nat's injection of really large amounts of money into academic things did, it raised eyebrows in DRB and NRC, that maybe an unseemly amount of money was being put into the system, and the universities were getting too big for their boots. In my day here at Western, and later at York, my lobby in Washington was far more important than my lobby in Ottawa. US Air Force Cambridge Research Laboratory, Office of Naval Research, Air Force Office of Scientific Research, NASA, all these people put money into this department and other departments, and in my experience, all of it was contract, but it was unfettered. You had a very simple-minded work statement, you had graduate students and post-doctorals, and you got on with it. I'm not saying that what you are saying is not true, I'm sure it is, but the impact on the universities was very free and easy.
AVJ The only thing that I noticed in the matter of influence of this sort was when we started doing the infra-red work, one to two microns, that was all right. But then they developed an interest in the further infra-red, two to four microns, and they gave us a special contract in a great hurry to do what could be done.
RN At Saskatoon.
AVJ  Yes. That's when John Noxon was brought on.
DM But you're not suggesting that they constrained what you could do with the results in any way, are you?
AVJ No, they just wanted the information. But I think at some of the scientific meetings where some of these things were reported later, infra-red became a sensitive area.
RN In Nat's article in Physics in Canada, he says that Frank Davies was very concerned (and Frank will love him) about the level of funding that the US Air Force was putting in vis-a-vis DRB.
PF Well, I think that everybody outside was [concerned].
DM I want to ask Ian, because I was struck in reading the material that you prepared and what you have been saying, on what seems to have been quite free and easy communication between people at DRTE and Don Rose - following up on what Peter mentioned, was he still involved in classified work at NRC?
IM No.
DM So, in fact, there really was a fair degree of openness on a scientific level.
IM Oh, yes. We weren't connect with anything classified. In fact, no one in the Physics Division was. In fact, after the war there was absolutely no - although during the war there was - but after the war there was none, not in the Physics Division. There still was in Electrical Engineering in some places, but not in Physics.
DJ You might know, Peter, whether there is anything to it, that Frank Davies really had expected to join or return to NRC after the war?
PF I don't know the answer to that.
DJ I don't know where I got this idea, I was just wondering if there was anything to it. So, then, when the Defence Research Board was set up and he was going to be part of that, then he had his own research, he didn't have to be at NRC to do this.
PF Well, maybe, I don't know. You see, he, of course, during the war was involved in all this stuff that eventually blossomed into much more defensive work after the war. But I don't know that he really wanted to do more research of his own, or even direct research of his own. What he seemed to do was to hire young guys and send them out to do .. I don't know why he did it.
RN I think maybe you should go back a little further for the rationale in setting up DRB - Omond Solandt, you know. I was always led to believe that that was to put a layer of insulation between the hard military needs on the one hand and academic and civilian abilities and facilities on the other. And for many years that carried on.
Ralph Nicholls
DJ Except that here is this very energetic, active group, large group, at DRTE, doing pure research.
RN Indeed, yes. But the interaction with the academics did not involve much of that, did it? They wanted us to produce bright, young people who then could go into DRB as employees, and then they could do whatever was required, maybe some of it would be classified, maybe some of it wouldn't. I remember when I got clearance to Secret, I didn't know about it, because I didn't have need to know, so wasn't told.
AVJ Axford and Hines, I thought they all sort of moved out of DRB somehow.

No, we were very much in DRB. But my first summer there was 47, and my understanding of how this thing had come about was that the Navy and the Air Force had these - what were they, boffins, is that what they called them? - yes, they had these boffins left over from the war, and they had to do something with them, so they threw them together, and made at least this part of DRB, the Radio Propagation Lab. out of it. I guess Davies was the senior man by rank, and Jim Scott second, so they became Superintendent and Deputy Superintendent, and Jim Cox and Jack Meek were the four that made up the hierarchy of Radio Propagation Lab. We just did whatever they were interested in left over from the war.

Things changed from that . . no - my second summer there was when the Dew Line was being designed, so they were into real defence work by that time. Then I went away for three years and came back and everything had changed by then, and Peter has to fill in that part.
DJ A couple of comments on the origins of the ionospheric research, and the fact that it was Dr. Rose, back in 1932, made measurements of the ionosphere during the eclipse, and was that known at NRC in general?
IM No, I don't think it was, although his work in atmospheric electricity was.

Break between the Second and Third Sessions

[Peter Forsyth was not present for the third session]

Discussion on UWO

RN Ralph Nicholls speakingI have written down in my review, when I introduced myself, and it's in the books here, how it came about that we got that contract. We really did, for 1951, the contract was launched by this quite important conference, the precursor to which was the meeting of the Gassiot committee of the Royal Society. If you compare these two [referring to summaries of the two meetings] they are very similar. When you look at the people who came to this one, it was a real lift to this institution in those days, in 1951. I think one of the few people who realized that was the then president, Ed Hall. The way in which that contract was organized - Don Misener was head of the department, I was very young, but sort of brought the contract here - how it was possible not to create the situation where there was one well-funded group, and all the rest were poor. We spread the money around to some of the younger faculty people, and the number of really first class young people that we produced - I said we, they produced themselves as graduate students - was very important, just as it was at Saskatoon. I think that the money that came into the universities, perhaps the biggest thing that happened, apart from all the science, was that two or three generations of very bright young people got their Masters degrees and their PhDs, and they went to Canada, and the US and the UK, and so on, in universities and in industry. I think the impact on people was the most important thing. That wasn't just Western; Western and Saskatchewan had that, and, of course, there was the Stormy Weather Group at McGill, and so on. It worked very well, and I think it gave this department a real lift over those years. And we can talk at dinner; I will name names, there were certain people in the top of the administration who were pleased, and certain people in the top of the administration who weren't.

More on DRTE


Colin HinesThe reprint that I passed around just before our meeting started is from a book on the early days of the magnetosphere. It was commissioned by the American Geophysical Union, and they invited a number of us who had been in on the early days of the magnetosphere to prepare memoirs that dealt both with our science and the organization that we were in, so there is a lot of organizational material in there, quite apart from the science. I won't go into any sort of detail from that. My own contributions to space research as it seems to be defined for the purposes of this meeting have to do with two items, one successful, the other not. The successful one concerns Walter Heikkila. When I took over the Radio Physics Lab. from Peter, it was a collection of groups that had been growing up more or less independently, whereas I wanted to see it concentrate on a theme, so that people could be supportively interacting with one another. Walter Heikkila's group was the most disparate of the groups present. He was at the time involved in tropospheric research, tropospheric scattering, and I put it to him that the thing that the lab as a whole really needed was something in rocketry, and would he be prepared to give up his tropospheric work, and I would give him all the support I could as first priority in building up a rocket group. He was very adamant that he wanted nothing to do with this. He was very happy with his tropospheric work, thanks very much. I said, "OK, I'll keep you on at the present funding and present manpower level, but you must expect that any increases in resources that we get will go into other groups, not into yours," and that was fine. Three months later he came back to me and said, "I've been thinking about that suggestion of yours," and in fact, he had had a complete change of heart, so the rocket group was born. One of his first entrees to rocketry was as recording secretary to a meeting that I called at Peter's instigation, bringing together representatives from various groups in Canada that were interested in getting started in a rocket program, and I think in the files of DRB there must be a report written by Walter on that basis. In any event, he got the support, and went on and did the rocket work that you know of. That's only a partial success, I think, because three or four years later he was down in Dallas, meaning that Canada had lost him as a scientist.

The second thing I thought I'd mention, since you asked about things that were proposed but weren't done - all the oldies will remember that Diefenbaker, on coming to power had the Avro aircraft development terminated, and the airplanes smashed to smithereens. The very next day a memo came out to the labs inviting proposals of high technology nature that Canada might undertake in place of this. I suppose this was both to use funds now available from the Avro program, and in order to hang on to the technical support and engineering support that had gone into the Avro. The one suggestion that I sent in in response to this was that Canada should develop rocket-launching systems from an ice-breaker, and send the ice-breaker up into the northern waters where it could do meridian sweeps of anything that was wanted, and perhaps it should even be arranged that it could only fire Black Brant rockets, and the Americans would want to get in on this program, and they would be obliged to buy our Black Brant rockets. I think a lot of good science could have been done with that, and might still be done with that sort of system. As it is we just have piecemeal rocket measurements from isolated places. The day of that is probably past, but it wasn't acted on. But that's one of the things that was proposed and wasn't acted on, in response to one of your queries.
DM But you don't know at what level the actual decision was made?
CH No, I was, at this stage I think I was responsible directly to the Chairman for the Theoretical Studies Group, but responsible to Frank Davies for the Radio Physics Lab. My communications were supposed to go through him, in any event, and whether it got stopped at that stage, or in headquarters, I have no idea. I just never heard of it again. Nor did I ever see anything that was represented as Diefenbaker's replacement for the Arrow program.
GS I never heard of anything. What year was that?
CH It would have been 59, I guess. The date is set by the Arrow program - I don't remember.
IM That was about the time that Heikkila was going to put instruments in Black Brant rockets.
CH Oh, yeah. I took over the Radio Physics Lab. in the summer of 58, and I think by that winter time he was already ..
DJ Doris Jelly speakingI wasn't at all close to the decision-making process; however, I have some observations from being there. About your proposal to have a rocket program, to, in essence, aid Canadian industry- DRTE had the additional goal of supporting the forces as well as industry. Then there was Alouette, where the rationale was based on keeping up with space technology because of the defence implications. And so, as I see it, the decision-making wasn't as straightforward as it would be in a university where pure research was the objective. There was conflict about the purpose of the satellite, because to the scientists it was a scientific satellite, so using the data should have been given a greater priority even though the primary objective was to get into space technology. Then when Alouette was up and operating very successfully, continuation of the program was based on transferring the technology to Canadian industry. Later when there were four scientific satellites in orbit, the program was cut and the priority was shifted to developing communications satellites. So I think before getting into satellites, there was more freedom to do space science, but then the satellite programs used up all the resources.
CH Yes, the satellite program took over DRTE.
DJ Yes, DRTE changed it's identity when it became CRC, so to trace what happened and why is not so straightforward. With communications satellites being introduced and CRC having a mandate to address the needs of civilian communications, there was less justification for upper atmospheric research.
CH And Jack Belrose is probably still there making measurements of the D region.
DJ Did you happen to look up the Friends of CRC web site, with Jack Belrose's talk about having been there for 50 years? And he's still there part-time.
CH Doing the same research as he started, as far as I know.
DJ A couple of comments on the involvement of people we have been talking about this afternoon. I had mentioned that Dr. Rose had made measurements on the ionosphere. I guess it wasn't an ionosonde back in 1932. It was radio-wave measurements.
GS It was an ionosonde.
DJ An ionosonde? During an eclipse, and he observed ...
IM But earlier he had also done some atmospheric electricity work as well.
DJ Yes, but I believe it was for the eclipse that radio waves were first used for an ionosonde. And then Frank Davies got involved early in the war when they wanted to develop something for radio direction finding purposes. He worked with Bill McLeish of NRC to set up an ionosonde in the Gatineau. And then he went on from there. Did Bill McLeish continue with that?
AM In the 1950s and 60s, Bill McLeish, working at NRC, was operating a radio direction finding site south of Ottawa.

I mentioned predictions. Predictions were based on data from ionosondes. The prediction tables developed at DRTE in the early 1950s were based on averages of eleven years of data which was quite a massive job. It was all plotted by hand, and I think it was more art than science. But I want to mention a person who was key in the interpretation of the ionograms, and that was Len Hagg. I don't know if any of you remember Len Hagg? [murmured assent]. He was in the Swedish army, fighting the Russians, I believe. After he came to Canada, he operated an ionosonde at Prince Rupert, and I don't know where he learned his electromagnetic theory in all that, but he was the expert in the interpretation of ionograms; it's like a radiologist interpreting X-rays. So he was the authority on that continuing on with the Alouette data, doing analysis and publishing papers.

Other comments, and I don't want to take up a lot of time. The change and improvements in technology. To begin with the data were very coarse; for instance using the absence of reflections during hourly ionosphere data to identify polar blackouts. Even so, we were able to show that the phenomenon was correlated with the sunspot cycle, and the events occurred simultaneously in both hemispheres. Later they were connected to the solar proton events using riometers and rocket and satellite data.

Then there have been changes other than advances in technology. An example is my own experience. For several years I was responsible for doing some research, but was also responsible for looking after the "girls" who analyzed the data and whose main tool was the old calculating machine. I think that was my main purpose in being there, because, after all, men didn't know how to deal with "girls", so as long as I kept them happy and productive [laughter], it was OK, wasn't it.
CH It was.
DJ I won't go any farther with that one - just to make the point that a lot has changed since that time!